JAPJI 17-19
The last lines of PauRi 16 set the stage for PauRis 17-19 of the Japji which share a common theme, namely the spectrum of human activity and the countless ways or paths that people undertake - for good or for evil.
The first two stanzas contrast the sacred and the profane. The third reiterates what Guru Nanak has emphasized all along: that no accounting of the Creation is possible; that everything is the writ of the Creator.
The significant thing to note here is the continuity and consistency of Guru Nanak's insistence on submission to Hukam – in the refrain ('jo tuDh bhaav i saai bhalee kar) as being the right way.
It is in this context that the role of the Panch as the chosen ones of importance comes into play, because they are the very embodiments of Hukam.
As we consider these passages, please compose your thoughts around:
We agreed that Guru Nanak here expresses a deep sense of awe and wonderment, of being beholden by the sheer diversity of life: an extreme sense of wonder and awe ('vismaad')
He recounts the countless who “repeat your name, adore, worship intone the scriptures and practice yoga.”
Then Guru Nanak is awe-struck by the existence of evil in the world: 'Countless the fools, the thieves, the swindlers; countless those who rule by force. And so on.
Is Guru Nanak telling us that good and evil co-exist, that they are part of Hukam?
What is the meaning of: 'jeta keeta teytaa nau// bin naavai nahin ko thau//'.
Here is an observation made by Professor Pashaura Singh on the 19th PauRI that we should also contemplate:
“The most important insight that emerges from stanza 19 relates to the significance of linguistic words ('akhar') to describe the divine message: 'By words (akhari) alone can we utter the divine Name; by words alone can we give You glory. With words alone can we tell of Your wisdom, with words sing hymns of praise. With words we write and recite scriptures, and words must be used to record our destiny. The One who records it is free from its trammels; whatever is commanded must surely come to pass.' Clearly, Guru Nanak maintains that the glory of Akal Purakh is sung under such aspects as are relative to the endowments of the seeker. In other words, Akal Purakh reveals himself to the devotee in terms of the constitution and faculties of the human mind, and in accordance with the needs of the age. The divine message is thus conveyed in common parlance reflecting the cultural code of the time. Indeed, no mode of cognition is capable of expressing reality-in-itself; what is apprehended is relative to the mode of apprehension, which determines the form in which reality is known. These points are made explicit in the clear distinction which Guru Nanak makes throughout his works between the divine message (bani) and its expression in actual words (akhar). In his Patti Likhi ("Thus was the Slate Written"), for instance, Guru Nanak proclaims that "those who through the grace of the Guru understand the divine mystery behind these letters (akhar) erase the debt [of karma] from their heads" [GGS:432]. Thus it is the meaning behind the words (akhar) and not the words themselves that constitute the locus of revelation in Sikhism. Similarly, in his Bavan Akhari (the "Fifty-Two Letters") Kabir maintains that "these letters (akhar) will vanish whereas those [mystic] syllables are beyond these letters" [GGS:340]. These scriptural passages clearly indicate a differentiation between the medium of [removed]akhar) and the divine message, a message which is by its very nature inexpressible. More precisely, language is primarily an instrument for articulating an approximation to the divine message. “
Pauris 17 and 18 describe the diverse natures of human beings. Some attributes are considered virtuous, the others evil. All are created by God and every one’s nature is also governed by God who Itself remains unchanged. These two Pauris are therefore not in praise or criticism of any one; they just describe the diversity in nature.Paurri 17 also aids in understanding certain terms used in Gurbani for example Jog, Bhagat, Sati, Soor/warrior and Moni.
Let us start with Pauri 17 which talks of attributes considered virtuous:
ਅਸੰਖ ਜਪ ਅਸੰਖ ਭਾਉ ॥
There are countless mantras and their recitations; countless ways to love God and the creation.
ਅਸੰਖ ਪੂਜਾ ਅਸੰਖ ਤਪ ਤਾਉ ॥
There are countless ways to worship; countless penances and austerities.
ਅਸੰਖ ਗਰੰਥ ਮੁਖਿ ਵੇਦ ਪਾਠ ॥
There are countless scriptures and their readers.
From here on the meanings of various terms are explained by applying to the concerned practices.
Who is a Yogi?
ਅਸੰਖ ਜੋਗ ਮਨਿ ਰਹਹਿ ਉਦਾਸ ॥
Countless Yogis remain mentally detached from the world.
Devotion should be based on contemplation and learning of Divine virtues:
ਅਸੰਖ ਭਗਤ ਗੁਣ ਗਿਆਨ ਵੀਚਾਰ ॥
Countless devotees contemplate on their knowledge of Divine virtues.
Who is a Satee? This is not about a widow dying on her husband’s funeral pyre who is also called a Satee.
ਅਸੰਖ ਸਤੀ ਅਸੰਖ ਦਾਤਾਰ ॥
Countless people live truthful lives; countless share with others.
And a warrior?
ਅਸੰਖ ਸੂਰ ਮੁਹ ਭਖ ਸਾਰ ॥
Countless warriors face attacks of weapons head on
Who is a Moni?
ਅਸੰਖ ਮੋਨਿ ਲਿਵ ਲਾਇ ਤਾਰ ॥
Countless are those who remain speechless in continuous meditation.
ਕੁਦਰਤਿ ਕਵਣ ਕਹਾ ਵੀਚਾਰੁ ॥ ਵਾਰਿਆ ਨ ਜਾਵਾ ਏਕ ਵਾਰ ॥
ਜੋ ਤੁਧੁ ਭਾਵੈ ਸਾਈ ਭਲੀ ਕਾਰ ॥ ਤੂ ਸਦਾ ਸਲਾਮਤਿ ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰ ॥੧੭॥
How can I fathom nature, how can I describe them all?
I accept my inability without a second thought and submit to You;
A deed that pleases You is good O formless and eternal Lord. 17.
Pauri 18 mentions aspects which may be described as negative or taamsik i.e. those associated with ignorance, inertia and resultant evil.
ਅਸੰਖ ਮੂਰਖ ਅੰਧ ਘੋਰ ॥
Countless people act foolishly in ignorance as groping in the dark - without direction.
ਅਸੰਖ ਚੋਰ ਹਰਾਮਖੋਰ ॥
Countless people indulge in thieving or taking what they do not deserve.
ਅਸੰਖ ਅਮਰ ਕਰਿ ਜਾਹਿ ਜੋਰ ॥
Countless people in authority or power impose their will, suppress others and then perish.
ਅਸੰਖ ਗਲਵਢ ਹਤਿਆ ਕਮਾਹਿ ॥
Countless people indulge in violence and kill others
ਅਸੰਖ ਪਾਪੀ ਪਾਪੁ ਕਰਿ ਜਾਹਿ ॥
Countless people commit transgressions and then die.
ਅਸੰਖ ਕੂੜਿਆਰ ਕੂੜੇ ਫਿਰਾਹਿ ॥
Countless indulge in falsehoods and keep reincarnating.
ਅਸੰਖ ਮਲੇਛ ਮਲੁ ਭਖਿ ਖਾਹਿ ॥
Countless people with soiled minds consume the inconsumable i.e. indulge in corruption. They take what is not theirs.
This may be explained thus. The Hindus do not eat beef as they worship the cow, the Muslims do not eat pork as they consider the swine unclean. Guru Nanak says:
Haqu praaiaa Nanaka usu sooar usu gaaey.
Appropriating what belongs to others is like eating of pork by a Muslim and beef by a Hindu (M: 1, p 141).
Continuing with Pauri 18:
ਅਸੰਖ ਨਿੰਦਕ ਸਿਰਿ ਕਰਹਿ ਭਾਰੁ ॥
Countless people indulge in slander and thus take the faults of others on themselves.
ਨਾਨਕੁ ਨੀਚੁ ਕਹੈ ਵੀਚਾਰੁ ॥
This lowly Nanak has described these aspects of human nature.
As may be noted the verse ‘Kudrat kavan kahaa veechaar’ in Pauris 16, 17 and 19 has been replaced by ‘Nanak Neech kahai veechaar’ in Pauri 18. Calling himself lowly, Guru Nanak has used this to say in humility that he has just mentioned the types of attributes and is not criticizing any one.
ਵਾਰਿਆ ਨ ਜਾਵਾ ਏਕ ਵਾਰ ॥
I admit my inability to describe nature without a second thought and submit to You.
ਜੋ ਤੁਧੁ ਭਾਵੈ ਸਾਈ ਭਲੀ ਕਾਰ ॥ ਤੂ ਸਦਾ ਸਲਾਮਤਿ ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰ ॥ ੧੮॥
What pleases You is good O formless and eternal Lord. 18.
Whereas the previous three Pauris express human inability to understand creation and human nature, Pauri 19 also emphasizes the presence of the Creator in all that exists:
ਅਸੰਖ ਨਾਵ ਅਸੰਖ ਥਾਵ ॥ ਅਗੰਮ ਅਗੰਮ ਅਸੰਖ ਲੋਅ ॥
Countless are the names given to God; countless are the places IT pervades; there are countless planets which are beyond reach.
ਅਸੰਖ ਕਹਹਿ ਸਿਰਿ ਭਾਰੁ ਹੋਇ ॥
Saying countless is (bhaar = load) transgression because effort has been made to count the infinite.
However when describing some thing one has to use words:
ਅਖਰੀ ਨਾਮੁ ਅਖਰੀ ਸਾਲਾਹ ॥
Words are required to describe God’s virtues and to praise them.
ਅਖਰੀ ਗਿਆਨੁ ਗੀਤ ਗੁਣ ਗਾਹ ॥
Words are also required to learn, sing the praises of virtues and understand them.
ਅਖਰੀ ਲਿਖਣੁ ਬੋਲਣੁ ਬਾਣਿ ॥
It is in words that we write and speak in a language.
ਅਖਰਾ ਸਿਰਿ ਸੰਜੋਗੁ ਵਖਾਣਿ ॥ ਜਿਨਿ ਏਹਿ ਲਿਖੇ ਤਿਸੁ ਸਿਰਿ ਨਾਹਿ ॥
One’s destiny written on the forehead is expressed in words;
But such writing does not apply to one (God) who wrote.
ਜਿਵ ਫੁਰਮਾਏ ਤਿਵ ਤਿਵ ਪਾਹਿ ॥
The mortals destiny is decided as God wills.
ਜੇਤਾ ਕੀਤਾ ਤੇਤਾ ਨਾਉ ॥ ਵਿਣੁ ਨਾਵੈ ਨਾਹੀ ਕੋ ਥਾਉ ॥
All creation carries the Creator’s stamp, acknowledges the Creator;
There is not a place where the Creator is not.
But what are all those places, what all comprises the universe? There is no complete answer possible for this since the expanse of creation is beyond human comprehension. We must acknowledge this and say:
ਕੁਦਰਤਿ ਕਵਣ ਕਹਾ ਵੀਚਾਰੁ ॥ ਵਾਰਿਆ ਨ ਜਾਵਾ ਏਕ ਵਾਰ ॥
How can I fathom what all creation is?
I accept my inability without a second thought and submit to You.
ਜੋ ਤੁਧੁ ਭਾਵੈ ਸਾਈ ਭਲੀ ਕਾਰ ॥ ਤੂ ਸਦਾ ਸਲਾਮਤਿ ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰ ॥੧੯॥
What pleases you is good, my eternal formless Lord. 19.
Study of Japji shows that it may be seen divided into two parts with the second part elaborating what is contained in the first. The division is at the middle i.e. at the end of the 19th of the 38 Pauris which is the stage we have reached.
As stated above, with part variation in Pauri 18 the central theme of Pauris 16 to 19 is:
ਕੁਦਰਤਿ ਕਵਣ ਕਹਾ ਵੀਚਾਰੁ ॥ ਵਾਰਿਆ ਨ ਜਾਵਾ ਏਕ ਵਾਰ ॥
ਜੋ ਤੁਧੁ ਭਾਵੈ ਸਾਈ ਭਲੀ ਕਾਰ ॥ ਤੂ ਸਦਾ ਸਲਾਮਤਿ ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰ ॥੧੭॥
This is elaborated in Pauri 27 which describes who all acknowledge the Creator:
ਸੇਈ ਤੁਧੁਨੋ ਗਾਵਹਿ ਜੋ ਤੁਧੁ ਭਾਵਨਿ ਰਤੇ ਤੇਰੇ ਭਗਤ ਰਸਾਲੇ ॥
ਹੋਰਿ ਕੇਤੇ ਗਾਵਨਿ ਸੇ ਮੈ ਚਿਤਿ ਨ ਆਵਨਿ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਕਿਆ ਵੀਚਾਰੇ ॥
ਸੋਈ ਸੋਈ ਸਦਾ ਸਚੁ ਸਾਹਿਬੁ ਸਾਚਾ ਸਾਚੀ ਨਾਈ ॥
ਹੈ ਭੀ ਹੋਸੀ ਜਾਇ ਨ ਜਾਸੀ ਰਚਨਾ ਜਿਨਿ ਰਚਾਈ ॥
Only those whom You like sing Your praises O Lord; they are the devotees imbued in Your love.
I do not know how many others acknowledge You, so I cannot describe where all You are present;
The Master is eternal and so are Its virtues;
One who created the universe is eternal.
Pauri 19 also states:
ਅਸੰਖ ਨਾਵ ਅਸੰਖ ਥਾਵ ॥ ਅਗੰਮ ਅਗੰਮ ਅਸੰਖ ਲੋਅ ॥ ----
ਜੇਤਾ ਕੀਤਾ ਤੇਤਾ ਨਾਉ ॥ ਵਿਣੁ ਨਾਵੈ ਨਾਹੀ ਕੋ ਥਾਉ ॥
This is elaborated in Pauri 38 thus:
ਸਚ ਖੰਡਿ ਵਸੈ ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰੁ ॥ ਕਰਿ ਕਰਿ ਵੇਖੈ ਨਦਰਿ ਨਿਹਾਲ ॥
ਤਿਥੈ ਖੰਡ ਮੰਡਲ ਵਰਭੰਡ ॥ ਜੇ ਕੋ ਕਥੈ ਤ ਅੰਤ ਨ ਅੰਤ ॥
ਤਿਥੈ ਲੋਅ ਲੋਅ ਆਕਾਰ ॥ ਜਿਵ ਜਿਵ ਹੁਕਮੁ ਤਿਵੈ ਤਿਵ ਕਾਰ ॥
The formless Master abides in the realm of Truth, eternity;
IT creates, watches and bestows grace on all creation;
IT's domain is on all planets, galaxies and universes;
Description of these can never end;
All planets are the manifestation of the Creator;
Every thing happens as the Creator wills.
This is how Pauris 16 to 19 describe the diversity and infinite nature of creation as also the eternal nature of the Creator.
Rawel Singh
Rawel Singh Ji, thank you for the translation, but in Pauri 17 I am not clear on a few of the words and phrases:
Charan Singh Ji - I was wondering about some of the same questions, particularly the first one as relates to Pauri 17.
When reading Pauri 17 I get the image or impression that Guru Nanak was listing a variety of actions which are piety just for it's own sake, not very purposeful, such as yogis depriving themselves and people committing feats of bravery to prove their devotion. It seems to me he is pointing out these "countless" futile examples of worship to contrast with the "rare" example of a Gurmukh or Panch.
I didn't see the actions in Pauri 17 as naam contemplation, sunniai or manniai in these examples, so I took it as a list of actions and ways of being which are different than bhali kar, and they should be avoided. I took Pauri 17 and Pauri 18 both as lists of what not to do, not that the first one is a good list and the second one is a bad list.
So to answer the question more directly, I don't think the practice of silence or other exercise like those mentioned in Pauri 17 connects us to the creator, because we are told in the first and second Pauris that silence does not bring silence of the mind, and that it is good action is the unlocking of salvation's gate. I did not see these states of worship in Pauri 17 as providing a variety of equally worthy alternatives to the process of contemplating Naam and right action that Guru Nanak has explained thus far.
Eileen Ji,
The answers to your questions are as follows.
1. Tap tau literally means austerity with heat and is actuallypracticed. The practitioner lights fire to a log of wood on one side and it keeps burning slowly and he sits next to it even in summer. The idea is to show subjecting the self to discomfort and in austerity. No there is no significance of bringing in penance for a Sikh.
2. Udaas literally means sad and detachment is derived from there by way of being dissatisfied with the world-experience, and is followed by withdrawal.
3. Satee. There is no grammar clue and one can easily take the meaning as you suggested. However next come Asankh daataar = the givers or donors. Also in Asa Di Vaar we read "sateeaa man santokh oopjai denai ke veechaar" the donors feel happy at the thought of giving.
4. About the the questions asked from S. Charan Singh Ji, kindly appreciate that Guru Nanak after having mentioned the so-called negative traits in Paurri 18 says "Nanak neech kahai veechaar" lowly Nanak has described these. In other words he is saying I have mentioned the various traits and and cannot criticize them, "Whatever You approve O Almighty is a good deed". So Whatever is given in Paurris 17 and 18 shows diversity of human conduct and contains no opinion on them.Yes it is given in Gurbani elsewhere but is in a given context in each case.
Guru Fetah:
Thank you to all of you who have posted a number of very insightful thoughts and detailed explanation of the three Pauris ( 17 through to 19). It is indeed very helpful as I look forward to a mutually enlightening dialogue tomorrow. Here are some of the questions that precipitated in my mind while reflecting on what has been said on the blog:
1) “'jo tuDh bhaavi saai bhalee kar” – This line (Pankti) has been repeated in each of the three Pauris and also we did allude to it briefly while discussing Pauri 16. As I understand it suggests that only those actions/deeds or actions (Kar) of ours are worthwhile (bhalee) which are favourably acknowledged by Akal Purkh.(jo tuDh bhaavi). So the question is how does one know which of his/her actions are favourably acknowledged by God so that he/she remains on that worthwhile path? [ਜੋ ਤੁਧੁ ਭਾਵੈ ਸਾਈ ਭਲੀ ਕਾਰ ॥ ਤੂ ਸਦਾ ਸਲਾਮਤਿ ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰ]
2) In the accompanying line (Pankti), it is stated:
ਕੁਦਰਤਿ ਕਵਣ ਕਹਾ ਵੀਚਾਰੁ ॥ ਵਾਰਿਆ ਨ ਜਾਵਾ ਏਕ ਵਾਰ
Here my questions relate to the word KUDRAT. However, before I articulate my questions on this word, I always held a view and it is good to see Dr. Pashaura Singh seems to advance the same point of view and that view is: our expression of love, appreciation and intuitive feeling and understanding of God’s vast expanse and Gurubani interpretation is relative to our own intellectual capabilities and mental faculties. I recall at the outset of this endeavour Ravinder Singh Ji essentially underscored this very concept when he said “Jasi Mat Tesa Pargas”.
The world KUDRAT in the common parlance is used to refer to “material world” or “natural world”. So the questions are:
3) In the Pankti: ਅਸੰਖ ਅਮਰ ਕਰਿ ਜਾਹਿ ਜੋਰ , why the word “Amar” in almost all translations that I have seen ( including what Rewal Singh ji provided) is being translated as “perish” when it actually means “immortal”?
4) In the Pankti: “ਅਸੰਖ ਕੂੜਿਆਰ ਕੂੜੇ ਫਿਰਾਹਿ” (Translation by Rewal Singh Ji: Countless indulge in falsehoods and keep reincarnating) – where does Gurubani and Sikh philosophy stand with respect to this reference to reincarnation? If incarnation is there then it is equally meaningful to talk about Purab Janam ( past life) and if talking about past life is meaningful then belief is past karam and its consequences are valid corollaries.
5) In Pankti: “ਅਖਰਾ ਸਿਰਿ ਸੰਜੋਗੁ ਵਖਾਣਿ ॥ ਜਿਨਿ ਏਹਿ ਲਿਖੇ ਤਿਸੁ ਸਿਰਿ ਨਾਹਿ “ (Translation by Rewal Singh Ji: One’s destiny written on the forehead is expressed in words ;). The word “Sanjog” and earlier we saw in Pauri 16 a similar reference to “Lekha” seem to suggest the role of destiny. So what destiny is?
Guru Fetah
Rawel Singh Ji - thank you that is extremely helpful!
S. Paramjit Singh Ji,
My translation was as follows
ਅਸੰਖ ਅਮਰ ਕਰਿ ਜਾਹਿ ਜੋਰ ॥
Countless people in authority or power impose their will, suppress others and then perish.
Taking it word by word, it would be
(Asankh) countless people (kar-i = do) indulge in (amar = orders, jor-i = power) imposing their will and (jaah-i = depart) perish.
My request to fellow learners( Sikhs) for feedback
What ASnKh means to me..
While traveling together, sharing, learning from one another on GoR NaNK's BaNnee JPu that changes the direction from 16th Pauri, it seems a time to stop, measure and reflect on following
It seems until this pauri - the relationship of Creator -Creator' NaMo with me remains as ONE-One-one ( interestingly 99.99 emphasis is on Creator-Creators'NaMo and only twice GoR NaNK mentions ( Mai/ ਮੈ) in these sixteen pauris -all other places ਮੈ- derives its own meanings)
How
1) We ( every ਮੈ-+ ਮੈ-+ਮੈ-...) have been reading, contemplating on Gurbani through numerous sources of knowleges, people, practices , passions that every ( ਮੈ-) seems to create and adds to numerousity. So the relationship after this pauri onwards seems to become ONE-One-one-Numerous that can also be stated as ONE-One-one-(ONE-One-one, ONE-One-one,ONE-One-one,ONE-One-one.....) Every every ( ਮੈ-) as distinct needs to be respectfully treated, individualized because every ( ਮੈ-) has to have that ONE-One in it.
2) However, what tools every ਮੈ has used to expand, to become numerous ( ASnKh) and did every ਮੈ created these tools or simply acquired these
Akharee/ Alphabets/Letters and what each of these letter that has a ( phoneme( sound- Sunnaa-bolna) morpheme( shape-Dakhna) + a meaning (Dikhna - Insight) as individual letter or as a Group of letters That is Word
All appreciations, any criticism, intelligent, thief, scholar, manipulator, all differences of opinions, ASnKh, HIGHLY LIKELY happens through the meanings only that every ( ਮੈ-) has resourced as per point 1 above from the created, secondary sources.
Meanings need FOCUS/ Attention/ Dhiyan.
How often one notices that one reads Shabd with "Sh" instead of Gurbani recommends "S". There is no sound of "Sh" in Gurbani of GoR NaNK - how many ( ਮੈ-) agree, even if in agreement, how many ( ਮੈ-) becomes attentive to speaking Sabd with "S" not with "Sh" and why not - because repeated sourcing from SECONDARY SOURCES - layer after layer has acquired knowledge that marginalizes the GURBANI ( ONE-One) connection with ( ਮੈ-)
What is important seems to understand the ASnKh with great flexibility to converge into ONE-One that seems essence of first sixteen pauris. ( ਮੈ-) that creates ASnKh as we have seen above need to converge into ONE-One so that from that transcended ( ਮੈ-) absorbed ( ਸੋਖਿਆ) one ਉਨਿ ਚਾਨਣਿ ਓਹੁ ਸੋਖਿਆ ਚੂਕਾ ਜਮ ਸਿਉ ਮੇਲੁ ॥੧॥
Please help me with your feedback :
a) Do you agree that from secondary sources using language only ASnKh originates as explained above
and
b) ਗੁਰਬਾਣੀ ਇਸੁ ਜਗ ਮਹਿ ਚਾਨਣੁ ਕਰਮਿ ਵਸੈ ਮਨਿ ਆਏ ॥੧॥ one can only imbue into Gurbani with Gurbani and not secondary sources (ਉਨਿ ਚਾਨਣਿ ਓਹੁ ਸੋਖਿਆ) ? One way to LEARN Gurbani from Gurbani is using Patti Likhi of Gur NaNK ( Ank 432) as our methodology.
c) should we (every ਮੈ-+ ਮੈ-+ਮੈ-....) collectively learn from the GoRoo and also learn directly from ( ONE-One) this connection ?
ਸੁਣਿ ਸੁਣਿ ਗੰਢਣੁ ਗੰਢੀਐ ਲਿਖਿ ਪੜਿ ਬੁਝਹਿ ਭਾਰੁ ॥ ਤ੍ਰਿਸਨਾ ਅਹਿਨਿਸਿ ਅਗਲੀ ਹਉਮੈ ਰੋਗੁ ਵਿਕਾਰੁ ॥ ਓਹੁ ਵੇਪਰਵਾਹੁ ਅਤੋਲਵਾ ਗੁਰਮਤਿ ਕੀਮਤਿ ਸਾਰੁ ॥੨॥ Ank 71
Thanks
Charan Singh Ji, I'm not sure if this directly answers your question you mentioned here and on the panel, but in Pauri 19 I am now thinking that akhree is the solution to the mental problem that arises from all of the variety and numerousity.
I think that Pauri 17 describes the futility as a variety of people are trying in a variety of ways to be pious or physically get a closer connection to the Creator. And Pauri 18 describes all of the countless vile or sinful types of people all around. So trying to fathom all of these different aspects of creation and make sense of it all, trying to figure out and judge truth from falsehood is frustrating and described by Guru Nanak as creating a heavy head-weight, which sounds to me like stress.
So akhree seems to be presented as the solution, because through akhree we get Naam which provides clarity. Akhree also gives us the ability to sift through knowledge, states/conditions and qualities.
And importantly I think, we are told "Akhraa siri sanjogu vakhani" which I take to mean something like letters/symbols explain the head connection, so the words solve the problem of the mind weighing all the contrasting and seemingly conflicting parts of the whole creation.
In that way, I think words alter consciousness, as the Guru's akhree takes us out of the mental track where we are going around contemplating the activity all around us in the world, examining just the ONE-One connection of Creator-world, with all its numerousity. And if instead we go with the mental track of contemplating the Guru's akhree, we turn the focus back toward our connection with the Creator, back to the ONE-One-one, Creator-world-me.
If the question is deeper as to literally how that mental shift happens as we go from words to consciousness change, I think it might be partly explained by the Sunniai and Manniai in the earlier Pauris. But I have often wondered about this process in my own life. I personally would not have logically expected so much life altering power from letters on a page prior to studying Gurbani, so I have to say the power of akhree to change consciousness resonates with me. So on a very simple level, since Gurbani is comprised of akhree, and Gurbani inspires faith and thus can cause a person to step outside of pure logic and reason when trying to understand the universe, turning instead to that internal Creator within, I feel that is how akhree can connect and affect change in one's consciousness.
"power of akhree to change consciousness resonates with me"
Many thanks Eileen jio for weaving the thread neatly, tightly using the power of Akhree. Yes, your right, indeed it seems a solution Gur NaNK provides in pauri ninteenth for the secondary/ dualistic nature ( as Gurav Ji was suggesting too) and how everything in time and space is NaO. The most challenging part for any consciousness is unwinding/ unlearning, without that change, a stream of compassion, love, caring, fellowship can never flow through the human body. For this sachiara conduct to happen - GuR NaNK simple suggested solution is neither silence, nor any yoga, nor secondary knowledge sources ( Pauri17th) nor other extremes such as cheating, deceiving of any kind, nor being killings in the name of religion, nor doing bad acts and so on ( pauri 18th) BUT it is only through the BhaO / love with NaMo BaNnee and Sangat where this transformation to sachiara conduct occurs seamlessly, gradully. A change in consciousness/ behaviour/actions/ thinking/nature/communities - just through language is a pedagogical solution ( least a religion of good or bad) a most cost effective and easy to execute and practice at individual levels. Anything other than NaMo BaNnee/ Akhree NaMo seems secondary option for GoR NaNK. Thanks again for additions. C
Following kept teasing me for several days...
1) Why would GoRNaNK introduce ਅਸੰਖ ਗਰੰਥ ਮੁਖਿ ਵੇਦ ਪਾਠ ॥ ਅਸੰਖ ਜੋਗ ਮਨਿ ਰਹਹਿ ਉਦਾਸ ॥ even before introducing the Akhari NaMo - that has a likely linguistic significance..
2) how correct Dr. Pashura Singh ji is in his understanding about the linguistic significance being introduced only in Pauri 19th,as referenced by Ravinder vir ji, ignoring that the Numerous written/ resources - Granth/Ved literature/ and reflections/reading of these have been introduced in Pauri 17th
3) Is their difference between ਅਸੰਖ ਗਰੰਥ ਮੁਖਿ ਵੇਦ ਪਾਠ / Asankh literature/ Scriptures ( pauri 17th) and Akhari NaMo of NaNK ( 19th) and
The answer to day seems to have come to these questions, while reading a message from a fellow learner who shares a pankti a day of Sabd sending daily email is reflecting on following GoR SaBDo of Mhla 1 -ਬੇਦ ਪਾਠ ਸੰਸਾਰ ਕੀ ਕਾਰ ॥ ਪੜ੍ਹਿ ਪੜ੍ਹਿ ਪੰਡਿਤ ਕਰਹਿ ਬੀਚਾਰ ॥ ਬਿਨੁ ਬੂਝੇ ਸਭ ਹੋਇ ਖੁਆਰ ॥ਨਾਨਕ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਉਤਰਸਿ ਪਾਰਿ ॥੧॥
Why Gur NaNK introduced ਅਸੰਖ ਗਰੰਥ ਮੁਖਿ ਵੇਦ ਪਾਠ in Pauri 17th is LIKELY reflected in "ਬੇਦ ਪਾਠ ਸੰਸਾਰ ਕੀ ਕਾਰ ॥ ਪੜ੍ਹਿ ਪੜ੍ਹਿ ਪੰਡਿਤ ਕਰਹਿ ਬੀਚਾਰ ॥ " However, GoR NaNK clarifies "ਬਿਨੁ ਬੂਝੇ ਸਭ ਹੋਇ ਖੁਆਰ " and distinguishes between the availability / reading of numerous sources ਅਸੰਖ ਗਰੰਥ ਮੁਖਿ ਵੇਦ ਪਾਠ and reflecting "ਪੜ੍ਹਿ ਪੜ੍ਹਿ ਪੰਡਿਤ ਕਰਹਿ ਬੀਚਾਰ" on this linguistic, spiritual, even oral(ਮੁਖਿ) treatises from various traditions AND THE AKhRee NaMo - the methodology of GoR NaNK. would it be interesting categorizing these as Secondary sources.
It seems it is not just the meaning "Thus it is the meaning behind the words (akhar) and not the words themselves that constitute the locus of revelation in Sikhism"( Prof Pashura Singh) - It is something more profound and rich that needs to be explored in What is Akhari NaMo? because finding/reflecting on the meaning ( from various sources - dictionaries, tikas, articles and so on) behind the words seems to be the practice (ਬੇਦ ਪਾਠ ਸੰਸਾਰ ਕੀ ਕਾਰ ॥ ਪੜ੍ਹਿ ਪੜ੍ਹਿ ਪੰਡਿਤ ਕਰਹਿ ਬੀਚਾਰ )
Your comments will help me better evolving and addressing into these themes of
What is Akhari NaMo? and
if Akhari NaMo is same as other written resources ?
C
Charan Singh Ji, I'm glad I'm not the only one who has still been turning this question over and over in my mind after you presented it!
I personally believe that Akhari Namo is really elevated above the other sources, and that these Pauris do not represent a discussion of religious tolerance. I am still learning, but I observe very little explicit message of religious tolerance in Gurbani, if any thing it seems more of a by-product of discussions on other topics.
The core message in my mind is much more specific and I believe it is indeed pointed at the Akhri Naamu as the focal point, not any other scripture contemplation, not any other path, as if they are all created equal. I think these other scriptures and texts are truly secondary sources, and I don't believe the Akhri in those secondary sources contain the Anhad Sabad.
I understand this could be entirely my bias, because as Guarav Singh Ji mentioned at one point, people tend to have an approach to reading Gurbani that reflects a system of understanding, and my bias is to see that the Sri Guru Granth Sahib is uniquely revelatory of the Creator and uniquely faith-inspiring, not one of many interchangeable paths to the same end.
What I experienced was a process that went from:
(1) An athiest/agnostic state of mind as a secular humanist.
(2) Reading and translating Gurbani with an intellectually curious state of mind.
(3) Considering and trying to understand the ideas presented because I was challenged by translating the Akhri from Gurmukhi, and as I contemplated the ideas, I was in a personal reflective state of mind, examining how the ideas apply to my own life and trying to relate in order to better comprehend.
(4) Discovering that the ideas were actually "deeply resonating" or "ringing true" or "striking a chord" like my conception of what is meant by the Anhad Sabad. It was as if someone was pointing out a whole new set of a priori truths and connections between the truths which I deeply and certainly felt to be true, but could not prove empirically or rationally in the way I would normally need something to be proven to accept it as truth. I would call this the establishment of "faith" for lack of any other word to describe it, and the closest state of mind I could compare it to would be falling in love.
(5) Feeling personally empowered by this faith like a call to action, the state of mind being like a calm, steady, purposeful activist. And a passion to get more and repeat steps 3-5.
So all this is an effort to say that my own observation is that no other reading of any other text in my own life as an educated and analytical even skeptical person has elicited these stages 4 and 5. although
I can't say I have done an exhaustive study across all spiritual texts. And I don't know that the particular ideas and concepts in the Gurbani that resonated so deeply for me are the same that would resonate for someone else. However - unless some other text presents the same identical ideas, then I don't see how they would elicit the same response or how someone would find the Anhad Sabad when a person reads the Akhri of that other text.
I simply conclude from my experience that the combination of the Akhri Naamu and the practice of contemplation of the meaning behind the words is unlike any other written resource, because it is uniquely tied to the Anhad Sabad. I will be very interested to hear if this is similar to the experience of others as well.
Wahe Guru Ji Ka Khalsa, Wahe Guru Ji Ki Fateh.
Looking forward to joining the discussion tomorrow evening, and am grateful to share these poetic interpretations of the 17-19th Paurees on the blog.
17
Countless are those who call on Thee.
Countless those who Love.
Countless those who do the ceremonies of Fire.
Countless those who purify themselves through their Inner Fire.
Countless the revered and learned ones
Who recite and speak Your sacred words.
Countless those who practice Yoga,
And live detached from their own minds.
Countless those who have surrendered themselves
In love and devotion to Thee,
Gathering virtue, wisdom and deep reflection.
Countless the respectful persons.
Countless the givers.
Countless the heroes who bear the brunt of battle.
Countless those who live in silence,
Attuned to Your Divine Song.
What of your Universal, Unfathomable
And profoundly Feminine Creative power
Can I speak or reflect?
I cannot even once
Be a sacrifice to Thee.
What pleases Thee
Is the only good worth doing.
Oh Divine Spirit,
You are ever Indestructible
Beyond and Unbound by Form.
18
Countless the weak persons
Who cannot stand to see
The horrors of the world.
Countless the thieves
Who make their living
By exploiting others.
Countless those who use power
In the service
Of their own egos.
Countless those who do not tolerate
What they don’t understand.
Countless those who make so many errors
Even their errors
Breed more errors.
Countless those who are so wretched
They spread wretchedness
Wherever they go.
Countless those who do not know
The Divine is within them,
And spend their lives
Turning humanity
Against each other.
Countless those who never find
Anything good to say
And cloud their minds
With their own negativity.
Naanak,
Of my own weaknesses
I speak and see.
I cannot even once
Be a sacrifice to Thee.
What pleases Thee
Is the only good worth doing.
Oh Divine Spirit, You are ever Indestructible,
Beyond and Unbound by Form.
19
Countless the spirits
Who come into form.
Countless their enjoyment
Of the experience.
There are so very many of them
I cannot know them all.
Countless those who try to speak
Of these things —
What a weight
They burden their own minds with.
From Beyond the Beyond
Comes the Vibration
That lives within every creature.
From Beyond the Beyond
Come all the Voices
That honor and praise this wondrous thing.
From Beyond the Beyond
Comes the definition
Of wisdom, sacred writings and virtue.
From Beyond the Beyond
Comes
All that is written,
All that is spoken
And all Sacred Sound.
From Beyond the Beyond
Comes the instructions
Of how to attain
Complete Union with the Divine
And surrender yourself to the experience.
The One who does
All the writing,
No one can write anything
For Him.
Living in the Purity
Of one’s own self-existence,
That is how the True Spirit comes.
That True Spirit is within all things
And creates all things.
Without that True Spirit
Nothing would exist.
What of Your Universal, Unfathomable
And profoundly Feminine creative power
Can I speak or reflect?
I cannot even once
Be a sacrifice to Thee.
What pleases Thee
Is the only good worth doing.
Oh Divine Spirit, You are ever Indestructible,
Beyond and Unbound by Form.
Many thanks Eileen ji and fellow learner for an opportunity to further share and better learn with your participation. I concur particularly with following statement
(1) “truly secondary sources, and I don't believe the Akhri in those secondary sources contain the Anhad Sabad”,......
Kabirjio clarifies at one point that there isAnhadSabad/AnMRiTo in these sources also but gives an example .har hai khānhd rēt mah bikharī hāthī chunī n jāi .kah kabīr gur bhalī bujhāī kītī hōi kai khāi .238. Searching TRUTH from these secondary sources is very very hard
2) “this could be entirely my bias”.
I am skeptic, because GoRoo guides it is only this time ( Eha Tera Avsar Ehe Tere Bar) that one can connect to the Source, thus, it could be my bias too... seeking guidance from GoRoo ,guides of several objective measurements and validations. here is just one
English is not my first language ;) so please read following little, by little and attentively, it may make some sense, please ask if unclear –
In common familiar terms GoRoo seems to me like a Radar – SOURCE OF ALL KINDS OF KNOWLEDGES through Variety of Languages and Awareness.
WHEN ANY OF MY ACTION (I read, listen, speak, or use, explore, understand, and reflect on any knowledge source expressed/communicated through a language ( variety of language, all kinds of sources of knowledge in these languages) through words with meanings in that language)
RELEASES AN ENERGY
DOES THE RADAR ECHOs ( RETURNS THE ENERGY ) and I CAN DETERMINE THE DIRECTION AND DISTANCE from this SOURCE /RADAR
All these secondary sources and consciousness ( awareness types) are researchable, explorable...
However GoR NaNK suggests, when MY ACTION is imbued ONLY in NaMo ( no secondary sources, dictionary meanings, teeka, personal bias and so on) GoR NaNK assures the ECHO( the return of the energy/ connectivity to the Source)
because NaMo BaNnee/ Akhree NaMo knows
a) the origin ( DHoiR) ,
b) the Path( Har Ka Marg/ Sant Ka Marg) ,
c) the distance ( Hath pae Narae – at a hands distance) and
d) the measurement ( Disae Jahra – objectively measureable)
with which the connection( direction and distance) between the SOURCE RADAR and reflecting object ( ME) can be objectively determined.
With a magnet around do I ( like a Loh/ iron filings/rusting iron) experience a force around me ,freedom, connection to the Source Magnet because the GoRoo (the Magnet) powerfully permeates everywhere; as iron filings, do I connect with the magnet easily with the NaMo, manifested and dwelling inside me.
HOW DO I MEASURE THIS CONNECTION TO BE OBJECTIVELY TRUE?
DOES THIS CONNECTION LEADS ME TO TRANSCEND IN TIME AND SPACE and reach the SOURCE?
DO I NEED NaMo or can I do without NaMo ? to reach/ connect to the SOURCE?
How do I logically identify the SOURCE? What are the characteristics of that SOURCE that has universal implications and validations?
Or
is it like rusted iron filling that the most may remain unattractive to the most powerful presence of the magnet ( AnMRiTo Sada Varsada, Bujhae Bujanhar)
Humbly
C
Eileen Ji and Charan Singh Ji,
I have a request. When we discuss something with a context that it should be kept in mind. Eileen Ji's thoughts I am afraid are based on a general reading of Paurris 17 to 19. To say that the contents of Paurris 17 and 18 refer to those concepts which are rejected by Gurbani would not be right. Firstly when Guru Nanak says at the end of these Paurris " jo tudh bhaavai saaee hbali kaar" what you approve is right O Almighty, takes away the human right ot be judgemental. This is justified because Paurri 17 contains "asankh bhagat gun giaan veechaar" countless devotees contemplate the guru-given awareness; and "asakh soor muh bhakh saar" countless warriors bear the strike of steel weapons. Gurbani does not reject, but rather promotes these. Similarly the line in Paurri 18 "asankh gali vaddh hatiaa kamaahi" countless murderers cut off heads. Whereas this when done as a crime is bad but killing mosquitoes, lice, ticks etc is not. This is also done by court awarded executions and are done as part of duty. Once again Guru Nanak saying "Nanak neech kahai veechaar" lowly Nanak puts across this thought, makes it clear that he is only mentioning what people do and some of them could be wrong but not all based on "jo tudh bhaavai saee bhaee kaar".
My appeal is to please keep focus on the whole Purris and not just look at some words.
Rawel Singh Jio, Thanks for your patient explanations, I appreciate them. Since I am new to Sikhi I am not well versed in traditional accepted meanings, which is both a blessing in the sense that I am free from preconceived ideas, and also a curse because some nuances of the meaning and metaphors are missing for me.
I do agree with your appeal to look at the whole Pauris and I understand what you are saying. In fact I always start by translating each word from the Gurmukhi but then I translate each Pauri for myself so I can get a better understanding. Some things are always still unclear but the SikhRI class has been helping a lot with grammar.
In the phrase "Jo tudh bhavaai saali bhaali kaar" I undersand "bhaali kaar" as "good action", so good action is pleasing to the Creator. I understood it not as judging the Asankh activities like a rule book which needs exceptions for the mosquitos would be very complex, but more like judging in contrast to the right action bhaali kaar. I thought of the bhaali kaar as the directions given by Guru Nanak in the other Pauris, to follow Hukam, connect to the Creator, deeply listen and absorb Naam, manifest Naam in actions, etc. Since Guru Nanak doesn't mention Naamu until Pauri 19, I understood all of these Asanhk things as apart from the bhali kaar. This to me is like when Guru Nanak guides us away from empty rituals - not by condemning them but saying they are not the point.
When I read "Asankh bhagat gun giaan viichar" I saw this not as Gurmukhs contemplating Guru's Bani but as Yogis contemplating the Vedic texts which were being discussed here in the Pauri. I thought Guru's Bani Guru mukhs would be rare, but the Veda granth mukhs would be the Asankh bhagats.
When I read "Nanak neech kahai vichaar" I had basically the same translation as you offer "Lowly Nanak puts across this thought" but I am struggling to see how this implies that Guru Nanak makes no discernment between actions and is just making these lists to illustrate variety. I thought instead the phrase was similar to when Guru Nanak says he cannot possibly describe something which is beyond words - but then he proceeds to offer a description. Similarly here I thought Guru Nanak says he is just a lowly person... but then offers his guidance in the next three lines.
So I am still trying to improve my understanding using your comments and the thoughts everyone shares are a huge help to me. I could certainly be wrong about what I am taking away here from these Pauris, so even though I'm not sure how the differences in my interpretation are caused by looking at a few words and not the whole Pauri in a cohesive manner, I will certainly reflect on it and try to see what I might be missing.
Guru Fetah Ji!
I am reading various points of views expressed on the blog. They are interesting and some of them overwhelming and, for a person of my level of intellect, somewhat confusing!
I often wonder Guru Nanak Sahib who travelled for 20 years to spread the message and then our Gurus, some of whom were tortured, beheaded and children executed, would in the end leave a Gurubani message so complex that the very Sikhs for whom they endured persecution would find it so difficult to understand. Our Guru Sahabians used metaphors, similies and contemporary language for us to understand Gurubani and not to confuse us --- it is all our doing!.
I find we are feeding our own ego and some time when I hear intellectuals speaking about gurubani, I see perhaps their focus is less on communicating the message to ordinary people like myself and more to seek peer-recognition and academic appreciation.
It is true the message inherent is Gurubani is very deep but at the same time it is wrapped up in different layers ( some may call it Pauris or steps) and the process to climb up is one step at a time. If we focus on the topic at hand ( as Rewal Singh Ji stressed a few times) and stay at the same step without jumping to higher steps, Gurubani will progressively reveal itself to us --- the concluding word “GUR PARSAD” in Mool Mantar underscores that as the Gurubani Gyan takes hold in our psyche we will move up the steps and our path will become progressively brighter and the journey fruitful.
Let us please keep in mind we are talking about Ek OmKar – which to me is an “Abstract Reality”. Some of you may ask what does it mean – “Real” and “Abstract” -- Nothing can be “Real” and “Abstract” simultaneously. I am using this term “Abstract Reality” in the same sense Guru Sahib used the word “Sargun and Nirgun” -- can something is be “Sargun” and “Nirgun” simultaneously. The answer to resounding yes!
However to many like myself, the answer is likely to appear “No” because we do not have the intuition or intellect which our Gurus possessed when they scribed the Bani. For us Akal Purkh is “Abstract” because it is beyond our intellect whereas to our Gurus he was a true Reality (Adh Saach, Jugadh Saach…..).
I prefer to understand Gurubani within the context of the Sabad, in which it is prescribed. Once the foundational understanding of the entire message is established, taking flights will be easier and the sky will be the limit.
Guru Fetah!
Paramjit Singh Rana
Thanks jio for further insights on some developing concepts that were earlier shared
1) "Ek OmKar" - Secondary sources are full of these types of evolving perspectives /terms/ phrases as reflections of their Gurmat understanding, however, these are not firmly grounded in Gurbani. Please research, find for your self if anywhere Guru Granth Sahib enshrines and illuminates and endorse these individual perspectives. Sharing Gurmat based perspective, or encouraging others to research to use Gurmat as a primary sources of reference should not reflect any ones' ego. It is a simple formula, become Guruwards or search secondary sources
2) "understand Gurubani within the context of the Sabad" - What context is being referred here? does it mean freedom, availability and flexibility to use secondary sources? instead of digging the meaning from the core SOURCE- Gurbani
3) "focus on the whole Pauris and not just look at some words" what if the entire message of the Stanza / Sabd / Pauri is revolving around a key message that has opening key in just one Word- as a trigger to a profound understanding
I would earnestly request and encourage panel to research meaning and context from Gurbani only.
Humbly
Wahe Guru Ji Ka Khalsa, Wahe Guru Ji Ki Fateh.
Thanks to everyone for such a wonderful conversation this evening. Grateful to share a little bit more about the point I was making - i.e. - that we do not have the map that underlies Gurbani to help us with the meanings. And the issue of "mental colonization" in terms of how we think about these words.
In my own studies, this is the starting point.
Japji Sahib begins with Ek Ong Kaar. This is most commonly translated as "There is One God." However, "there is One God" is the foundational thought of the Judeo-Christian tradition. When we think of Ek Ong Kaar like that, we are limiting what Guru Nanak has to say.
When we look into Ek Ong Kaar - it has a much more multi-dimensional meaning than "There is One God." In fact, Ek Ong Kaar describes the methodology and union of the Creator and the Creation.
Ek - The Oneness
Ong - The Sound, the Vibration
Kaar - the Manifested Creation
So a more multi-dimensional way to translate Ek Ong Kaar is "Out of the Oneness comes the vibration that creates the reality."
Contained in this, of course, is the idea that "There is One God." But Ek Ong Kaar explains so much more than that.
It explains the consciousness of the Creator and how creation practically comes into being.
Now when it comes to languages and especially spiritual languages, there are words that talk about that One Vast Consciousness. And there are words that talk about the created reality. The trees and bird and lakes and human beings and all that is here.
But Guru Nanak opens the dimension of Ong to us. Of Sound. Of how Sound is the connection between the Creator and the reality. How Sound is the creative power of the Creator that forms the reality. And it is in this ONG that the power lives.
You can get to union with the Creator through Sound. You can change the reality around you through Sound. The dimension of Ong is a dimension all to itself.
All of these words in Gurbani that we struggle to understand or explain - they are the words that map this dimension of Sound. Naam. Shabad. Bani. Akhree. Hukam. Man, even. None of these relate to a physical form. None of them relate to the Vast, Incomprehensible Oneness. They all relate to the dimension of Vibration that connects the form and the One. That links the creation with the Creator.
To understand these words, what they mean and the map they create, requires us to go into the dimension of Sound. Which is what happens when we meditate on the Shabad properly. It opens us up to this other dimension and these words are there to help guide us and explain what we are experiencing.
This is what I mean when the map that we have lost. We have to remember Guru Nanak brought something to the earth that included and transcended what had already been learned. Every faith will find their reflection in the Guru's words. But then the Guru invites us to another place where we can manifest heaven on earth through mastery of the power of Sound - if we understand how to do it and use that power purely.
Those are some thoughts on the topic for our discussion when appropriate. Thanks so much for allowing me to express them to you.
With Divine Light,
Ek Ong Kaar Kaur
Listening to the panellists this past Wednesday, I would like to address few questions that will highly likely remove some confusions and misunderstanding bringing more clarity to the Gurmat methodology, we should be researching with
(a) Why are there varieties of perspectives?
(b) As per Gurmat, Is it okay to have variety of perspective with no one firm consensus emerging, respecting each ones’ evolving perspective is okay as Gurbani as a source is being discussed?
(c) how relevant is methodology discussion in context with stanza (17-19) on Asankh ?
As per my understanding, following are some of the broader source categories and the reasons for the variety of evolving understandings amongst various panel members that makes us a heterogeneous discussion group.
Inclusiveness is at the core of Sikhi, as a starter to any discussion having variety of perspectives and being respectfully to all is important. It is also a great appreciation of diversity in creation that creator permeates everywhere. However, keeping different view, with no consensus emerging does not seem to be in line with Gurmat that UNDERLINES "Nanak Amrit Ek Hai" the ultimate universal understanding is ONE only. Thus this discussion on variety and methodology is very much relevant to these stanza.
How ever, if we choose to discuss these Stanza (17-19) of JaP BaNnee / Gurbani referencing from only / entirely following sources as these enshrine and illuminate the Guru; if there are any difficulties, we can further work collectively to resolve - how to use these resources, how a common measurement tool can be developed collectively... these resources are:
In this case ALSO - There will be again a variety of evolving thoughts, variety of perspectives, because one of us may have exhaustively studied Patti Mhla 1 and in the process of exploring another listed source, and another panel member may have studied Bavan Akhari , and both can share their perspectives, on the importance, significance, implications of Asankh – That will also give us AKHREE ARTH/ word-meanings of these Stanza AS WELL AS WITH A GREAT possibility of eventually emerging a CONSENSUS, highlighting the importance of #1_1_2_Many_2_1, ik Naam / AeKo NaMo – bringing us to a grounded in Gurbani meanings and reflections and similar conclusions on these stanzas.
This is a step requiring a choice /ਚਾਉ ਇਸ / choice of y/our un/conscious ( Surit/Surtee). This choice also reflects the intensity of y/our love to the Guru.
This is what I meant by Primary Source based methodology. Above list of variety of sources ( Vedanta/ Colonial/Post-Colonial references) is what I meant as Secondary Sources.
This seems to highlight the choice of Akhari NaMo / Akhari Salah – Gurbani opening Gurbani for researching meaning that has convergence into ONE-One NaMo. Lastly, when this methodology is followed, other BaNnees or getting to the meanings of great epics such as Zafarnama will flow through the elevated, gurmat based knowledge seekers, hopefully.
Interestingly, Gurbani is a complete SOURCE without any need to consult secondary source. All is left to how much one is in a learner mode and can make a choice /ਚਾਉ ਇਸ and intensity/ ਇਨ ਸਤਿ ਦੋਸਤੀ to have "ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਸਉ ਲਾਇ ਚਿਤੁ "
humbly
C
ਅਸੰਖ ਨਾਵ ਅਸੰਖ ਥਾਵ ॥
ਅਗੰਮ ਅਗੰਮ ਅਸੰਖ ਲੋਅ ॥
ਅਸੰਖ ਕਹਹਿ ਸਿਰਿ ਭਾਰੁ ਹੋਇ ॥
ਅਖਰੀ ਨਾਮੁ ਅਖਰੀ ਸਾਲਾਹ ॥
ਅਖਰੀ ਗਿਆਨੁ ਗੀਤ ਗੁਣ ਗਾਹ ॥
ਅਖਰੀ ਲਿਖਣੁ ਬੋਲਣੁ ਬਾਣਿ ॥
ਅਖਰਾ ਸਿਰਿ ਸੰਜੋਗੁ ਵਖਾਣਿ ॥
ਜਿਨਿ ਏਹਿ ਲਿਖੇ ਤਿਸੁ ਸਿਰਿ ਨਾਹਿ ॥
ਜਿਵ ਫੁਰਮਾਏ ਤਿਵ ਤਿਵ ਪਾਹਿ ॥
ਜੇਤਾ ਕੀਤਾ ਤੇਤਾ ਨਾਉ ॥
ਵਿਣੁ ਨਾਵੈ ਨਾਹੀ ਕੋ ਥਾਉ ॥
ਕੁਦਰਤਿ ਕਵਣ ਕਹਾ ਵੀਚਾਰੁ ॥
ਵਾਰਿਆ ਨ ਜਾਵਾ ਏਕ ਵਾਰ ॥
ਜੋ ਤੁਧੁ ਭਾਵੈ ਸਾਈ ਭਲੀ ਕਾਰ ॥
ਤੂ ਸਦਾ ਸਲਾਮਤਿ ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰ ॥੧੯॥
Let us try to Explain this Pauree in terms of Braham or Brahamical Language.
The following forms of Braham Exist as per Gurbani.
This concept may seem very new and different to the Traditional meanings but it does explain the Gurbani text in much depth.
Semi-conscious Braham (Aatama)
Conscious -Braham (Aatam)
Pooran Braham (Micro God : Satgur [Nanaks, and other Bhagats)])
Parbraham (Macro God: Shabad Guru, Parmeshwar, Hukam)
Some Indications of these Brahamical terms from within Gurbani
ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਪਸਾਰੁ ਜੀਉ ਸੰਗਿ ਦਇਆਲ ॥ਪੰਨਾ ੧੯੮
The merciful conscious Braham is with the mortal (Semi-conscious Braham).
ਘਟ ਘਟ ਅੰਤਰਿ ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਸਮਾਹੂ ॥ ਪੰਨਾ ੨੫੯
In every heart the Conscious -Braham (Aatam) is contained.
ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਮਹਿ ਜਨੁ ਜਨ ਮਹਿ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ॥ ਸੁਖਮਨੀ ਸਾਹਿਬ
The Semi-conscious Braham (Aatama) of Saints or Bhagats abides in the Conscious -Braham (Aatam). Hence they are Pooranbraham. They have ultimatly reached the state of Macro God (Parbraham).
ਕਈ ਕੋਟਿ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਕੇ ਦਾਸ ॥ ਸੁਖਮਨੀ ਸਾਹਿਬ
Millions upon millions of Micro Gods (Pooranbraham.)
are the slaves of the Macro God (Parbraham).
ਅਸੰਖ ਨਾਵ ਅਸੰਖ ਥਾਵ ॥
Innumerable names have been given to Conscious -Braham (Aatam) and Semi-conscious Braham (Aatama) and innumerable are their Thine abodes !( Various reincarnations)
ਅਗੰਮ ਅਗੰਮ ਅਸੰਖ ਲੋਅ ॥
These Innumerable Conscious -Brahams (Aatam) and Semi-conscious Braham (Aatama) are inaccessible and inscrutable.
ਅਸੰਖ ਕਹਹਿ ਸਿਰਿ ਭਾਰੁ ਹੋਇ ॥
To call all these Conscious -Brahams (Aatam) and Semi-conscious Braham (Aatama) as myriad amounts is to carrying load of sin on the head.
ਅਖਰੀ ਨਾਮੁ ਅਖਰੀ ਸਾਲਾਹ ॥
To improve their Conscious levels to Pooranbrahams they have been provided with the Naam (Spiritual Wisdom) in Alphabets from the Hakam (the originator of Hukam) for these Brahams so that they understand and praise the HUKAM and become Pooranbrahms.
ਅਖਰੀ ਗਿਆਨੁ ਗੀਤ ਗੁਣ ਗਾਹ ॥
The alphabetical Naam mentioned above is nothing but the Brahm Gian, is provided to sing and explore the Hukam and Hakam (Originator of Hukam) through this Spiritual Wisdom of Gurbani.
ਅਖਰੀ ਲਿਖਣੁ ਬੋਲਣੁ ਬਾਣਿ ॥
These written alphabets ultimately contains the Naam (Spiritual Wisdom) which can be uttered in the form of speech as a poetry.
ਅਖਰਾ ਸਿਰਿ ਸੰਜੋਗੁ ਵਖਾਣਿ ॥
These alphabets contains the Spiritual wisdom which can Unionise the Semi-conscious Braham (Aatama) with Conscious -Braham (Aatam) to attain a final stage of Pooranbrahm, through the proper understanding of these Alphabets and the Poetry of Brahamical Terms.
ਜਿਨਿ ਏਹਿ ਲਿਖੇ ਤਿਸੁ ਸਿਰਿ ਨਾਹਿ ॥
The writer of these alphabets is a Pooranbraham, he can’t be blamed if the communion between the Semi-conscious Braham (Aatama) and Conscious -Braham (Aatam) does not take place because of lack of effort or understanding of Gurbani.
ਜਿਵ ਫੁਰਮਾਏ ਤਿਵ ਤਿਵ ਪਾਹਿ ॥
The Pooranbrahm has written these alphabets under the command of Paarbraham.
ਜੇਤਾ ਕੀਤਾ ਤੇਤਾ ਨਾਉ ॥
ਵਿਣੁ ਨਾਵੈ ਨਾਹੀ ਕੋ ਥਾਉ ॥
The whole text of Gurbani alphabets contains only the Spiritual Wisdom (Naam).
There is no place for any other though process in this Gurbani.
ਨਾਨਕ ਕੈ ਘਰਿ ਕੇਵਲ ਨਾਮੁ ॥ ਪੰਨਾ ੧੧੩੬
Nanak's home (heart) is filled with the Naam, the understanding and praise of the HUKAM
Gurjeet Singh Ji and Ek Ong Kaar Kaur Ji, I think the analysis you offered is very intellectually intriguing. But at the same time, I do struggle with the idea hypothesizing lost ancient Maps and connections to what I understand to be Buddhist and Hindu traditions, because it raises a question in my mind as to whether the Gurbani is complete or not.
If I take the Gurbani as not complete without some additional text or construct from another religion, it feels like I might go anywhere with that idea. And I find I start mentally searching for the proof or validity of that ancient historical connection first before I can even arrive at the contemplation of the Gurbani. I start analyzing at what point were those connections lost, why were they lost what about the role of the Singh Sabha movement, historical events, etc.
Maybe I am not understanding how to use the analysis here properly, or maybe it is because I'm new, but I feel like I would need a lot more certainty of the authentic connections if I were to use sources outside of Gurbani and really be able to readily and easily accept them.
I would like to add one thing that Japujee Sahib begins after the Title Jap
Mool Mantar is not a Part of JAP
Mool Mantar is included 33 Times generally in the beginning of Each Raag
Oankaar has been Discussed in Detail by Gur Banak Jee in Raamkali Raag
Hence Japjee Sahib Starts with the Shalok
Aad Sach
also
Need to explore wheather Ek Oankaar is a sort of Compound word
How interested panel members/ Sangat- will be to collectively work and produce a paper on a methodology. Y/our purpose for being here on the forum and love for and guidance from the Guru, in search for meaning, are amazingly blissful and mutually encouraging. Thank you.
What is suggest here is a rational, relationship building where GoRi does the connection (ਗੁਰਿ ਕੀਓ ਬੰਧਾਨੀ ॥੪॥੫॥)
Shredding everything learned for a moment, rationally think for a moment, how would have Gor NaNK disseminated his message in time and space to masses( sikh-sangat)?
It seems similar to answering now as grown-ups, why you and I ( people) cried as a child?
A simple answer seems biological needs, a little deeper digging may relate, a whole world: hunger to the origin and recognitions of emotions such as anger, un/fulfillment, desire, motive, decision making, Innate characteristics, food ( milk) and later into variety of foods and so on. Interestingly, for some time the Child is nurtured with ONLY Milk through Mother, HIGHLY recommended, though left y/our choice to breast feed the baby or not.
Similarly, GoR NaNK, ( Mother/Father and everything for a Sikh) must have a methodology, some tools devised to disseminate his message to masses. Milk of Wisdom for everyone. One tool that comes to mind is Pattee Likhee that enshrines and illuminates the GoRoo on Ank 432.
So the purpose of this requested, collective ( sangat) project is: To explore the meaning of JaPo BaNnee using GoR NaNK’s Patti. Instead of my earlier suggested list, let all of us pick, research on ONLY Pattee as a tool to start with and validate if this SOURECE from GoR NaNK will FULFILL all our needs ( like the milk nurtures and satisfies the child) for AKhari Arth - meaning and connectivity?
If this interests you; you prioritize this, and have time to do so – y/our participation in learning from the Patti Likhi and reflecting on JaPo BaNnee would be all that is needed to research this methodology.
This methodology has both rational ( logically driven) and relational ( learning from GoRoo directly where - connection (ਗੁਰਿ ਕੀਓ ਬੰਧਾਨੀ ॥੪॥੫॥) Ank 671. ) is through the GoRoo similar to exclusive dependence of a child to mothers’ milk as a new born and as grownups how easy it is to research the reasons and meanings of a childs' actions. Even as grown ups we may have all the knowledge acquired for a meaning and connection - this might be an interesting working, if Patti has not been yet studied individually or as a group.
Y/our approval for such collective working ( as sangat) of Khoj Gurbani to validate Gurbani at the core level would be one of its kind.
Please share and post your comments/ suggestions or on this coming Wednesday Panel, November 19, can discuss more on how to execute without slowing down reflections on the research for meaning….. please ask if there are questions
Humbly
C
Interesting perspectives emerged during last night conversation... lets reflect on these:
Statement 1: Context is important to find meaning of the word example: Sanjog
Whether finding meaning of a word from the context perspective or otherwise, almost all the panel members agreed that Sanjog means connection/ to join/ merge the two separated ones.
thus a subsequent question arose…
Q.1 Can any language connect (Sanjog) us with the Source? related questions: Am I really interested in connecting with the Source. What is that Source?
To address the Q.1 and keep it in the context also of all three stanzas, following may emerge
Statement 2: Neither
any (other language from variety ( ASnKh Granth and messages contained in those scriptures)of Languages
nor
Gurbani /NaMo BaNnee/Akhri NaMo - language by itself,
can connect us to the SOURCE, One Universal Creator. Language can not take us beyond Trae GuNn because :
Supporting perspectives:
1) ਏ ਅਖਰ ਖਿਰਿ ਜਾਹਿਗੇ ਓਇ ਅਖਰ ਇਨ ਮਹਿ ਨਾਹਿ ॥੧॥
2) Bhai Sahib Bhai Vir Singh Ji references
As per my evolving understanding the answer is firmly grounded in the Gurbani THAT’S AKHREE NaMo is powerful to connect us to the CORE. NaMo is not just a language, it is a trajectory, road map of connection to the Fourth Stage. Because Mhla4 clarifies “ਏਹੁ ਅਖਰੁ ਤਿਨਿ ਆਖਿਆ ਜਿਨਿ ਜਗਤੁ ਸਭੁ ਉਪਾਇਆ ॥੧॥” and Mhla 1 suggests remedy “ਨਾਨਕ ਮਨਮੁਖਿ ਬੋਲਣੁ ਵਾਉ ॥ਅੰਧਾ ਅਖਰੁ ਵਾਉ ਦੁਆਉ ॥੩॥੧॥” in the second pankti pause after Andha) The remedy cure (ਦੁਆਉ) for the speaking Manmuikh is the Akhar ONLY . That means not all languages are as competently placed as NaMo BaNnee/ Akhri NaMo ( if that makes sense for those who try to search the context in these Stanza) GoR NaNK further advances the methodology for all on how to Connect with SOURCE this Akhar/ AKHRI NaMo - ਸਿਧ ਸਾਧਿਕ ਜੋਗੀ ਅਰੁ ਜੰਗਮ ਏਕੁ ਸਿਧੁ ਜਿਨੀ ਧਿਆਇਆ ॥ ਪਰਸਤ ਪੈਰ ਸਿਝਤ ਤੇ ਸੁਆਮੀ ਅਖਰੁ ਜਿਨ ਕਉ ਆਇਆ ॥੨॥ Ank 878 Further by Akhri NaMo ( by writing, listening, speaking, appreciating - ਲਿਖਤੀਂ ਕੁਲੁ ਤਾਰਿਆ ਜੀਉ) GoR NaNK has blesses humanity with the connection. GoR NaNK strongly advises “ਬਾਬਾ ਏਹੁ ਲੇਖਾ ਲਿਖਿ ਜਾਣੁ ॥” learn how to write this style.
If we explore Patti of GoR NaNK we would agree that One has to find the ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ from the GoRBaNnee BECAUSE:
ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਅਖਰੁ ਜਿਤੁ ਧਾਵਤੁ ਰਹਤਾ ॥ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਉਪਦੇਸੁ ਦੁਖੁ ਸੁਖੁ ਸਮ ਸਹਤਾ ॥
ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਚਾਲ ਜਿਤੁ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਧਿਆਏ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਕੀਰਤਨੁ ਗਾਏ ਜੀਉ ॥੮॥
Akhri NaMo seems GoR NaNK’s solution to language gap that may likely exist as a barrier to connect to the SOURCE.
It is interesting that reference came up “ਪੜਿਆ ਅਣਪੜਿਆ ਪਰਮ ਗਤਿ ਪਾਵੈ ॥੧॥” It seems ਅਣਪੜਿਆ is the process by which one unwinds the already learnt language driven identity, knowledge. As we have seen above not all languages can connect to the Source. Thus to contemplate on GoBinDo – one has to Unlearn the already Learnt stuff.
To sum up -
Akhri NaMo is unique gift of GoR NaNK to humanity
using Akhri NaMo one can connect to the Source
other words of other languages may perish but "ਸਤ ਕਾ ਸਬਦੁ ਕਬੀਰਾ ਕਹੈ ॥ " the NaMo BaNnee / SBDo survives and guides, connects humanity to the SOURCE
Are y/our seriousness reflected to connect through Gurbani ONLY, is your choice...
humbly
C
Sanjog :
As per Prof C. Shackle (A Guru Nanak Glossary)
Union, meeting, . coincidence, chance, luck
Sanjogi :: Uniter (of God)
Gurbani Writing and Grammar.
The Gurbani-grammar is very clearly visible in Gurbani writings although it is a poetry.
Some Examples
ਅਸੰਖ ਨਾਵ ਅਸੰਖ ਥਾਵ ॥
ਨਾਵ is used as Plural form. Also its adjective (ਅਸੰਖ : Innumerable) is plural
ਨਾਮੁ, ਨਾਉ are Singular forms (With Aunkar Under-neath the last letter of a Word)
ਐਸਾ ਨਾਮੁ ਨਿਰੰਜਨੁ ਹੋਇ ॥
ਅਖਰੀ ਨਾਮੁ ਅਖਰੀ ਸਾਲਾਹ ॥
ਲਖੁ ਲਖੁ ਗੇੜਾ ਆਖੀਅਹਿ ਏਕੁ ਨਾਮੁ ਜਗਦੀਸ ॥
ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਵੇਲਾ ਸਚੁ ਨਾਉ ਵਡਿਆਈ ਵੀਚਾਰੁ ॥
ਚੰਗਾ ਨਾਉ ਰਖਾਇ ਕੈ ਜਸੁ ਕੀਰਤਿ ਜਗਿ ਲੇਇ ॥
ਜੇਤਾ ਕੀਤਾ ਤੇਤਾ ਨਾਉ ॥
All these above pankatees are from Japujee Sahib
Also once more in Japujee Sahib
ਜੀਅ ਜਾਤਿ ਰੰਗਾ ਕੇ ਨਾਵ ॥
ਜੀਅ is used as plural
ਜੀਉ is used as Singular
ਹਰਿ ਬਿਨੁ ਜੀਉ ਜਲਿ ਬਲਿ ਜਾਉ ॥ ਪੰਨਾ ੧੪
ਪੜਿਆ ਅਣਪੜਿਆ
ਜੋ ਪ੍ਰਾਣੀ ਗੋਵਿੰਦੁ ਧਿਆਵੈ ॥
ਪੜਿਆ ਅਣਪੜਿਆ ਪਰਮ ਗਤਿ ਪਾਵੈ ॥੧॥ ਪੰਨਾ ੧੯੭
Traditional meanings
That mortal who meditates on the Lord of the Universe,
whether educated or uneducated, obtains the state of supreme dignity. ||1||
NOTE : GOBIND is not the Lord of the Universe as per Gurbani. (Hukam is the Lord of Universe), Gobind is our Braham.
Actual Meanings
That mortal who meditates on his Mool (Gobind ; Conscious Braham),
Must eradicate his previous education (Manmat)
to obtains the state of supreme dignity with his Braham ||1||
ਪੜਿਆ ਅਣਪੜਿਆ needs to be understood as per Gurmat
They are not actually Nouns, but to be used as Verbs to get the correct meanings.
ਪੜਿਆ (Read from other sources)
ਅਣਪੜਿਆ ( To eradicate this education and start as a fresh Slate)
Gurbani dictates; to attain Mukti one should read and further comprehend Gurbani.
It is not optional but compulsory to educate ourselves.
ਤੁਰਕ ਤਰੀਕਤਿ ਜਾਨੀਐ ਹਿੰਦੂ ਬੇਦ ਪੁਰਾਨ ॥
ਮਨ ਸਮਝਾਵਨ ਕਾਰਨੇ ਕਛੂਅਕ ਪੜੀਐ ਗਿਆਨ ॥੫॥ ਪੰਨਾ ੩੪੦
The Muslims knows their Muslim way of life through the study of Quran;
the Hindus knows their way of life after studying Puraanas which originated from Veds
To instruct their minds, people ought to study and comprehend a composition of spiritual wisdom. ||5||
Whole Gurbani is Satgur Parsaad.
ਘਰ ਮਹਿ ਘਰੁ ਦੇਖਾਇ ਦੇਇ ਸੋ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਸੁਜਾਣੁ ॥ ਪੰਨਾ ੧੨੯੧
Satgur shows us our true Brahm (Aatam) within the home of our Atma (Manh)
Satgur should not be translated as Satguru
It would be observed that it is hard to connect certain posts with the topic of the three Apurris of Japji. S. Gurjit Singh Ji and S. Charan Singh Ji may like to look at their recent posts.
In case it is so desired the management may consider another blog for general views.
Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ke Fateh
Thanks for the feedback. Actually one of the panel members referred "ਪੜਿਆ ਅਣਪੜਿਆ" in last discussion and we requested S Gurjeet Singh to review the context and add feedback to the blog.
Gur Fetah:
I just read the last few posts and would like to thank all panel members for in-person dialogue and follow up discussion on the blog. Although compared to all of you who are much higher up in this what I call Gurubani Sangat/Class, I find myself in the kindergarten but thanks to all of you I am learning a lot.
Here are some of my random thoughts on few ideas that have been discussed in the last few posts on the “Asankh” blog:
1) Yes someone rightly pointed out that we should stay on the topic and within the bounds of context ; however, I feel it is equally useful for us to marginally deviate as long as we do not go away very far . I think minor deviations allow us to build inertia through added clarity and information to move ahead. For that reason, when we encounter new concepts ( such as “Sanjog/Destiny” or “Naam” etc, we should rather than just saying it is not a place to discuss, we should at least provide some rudimentary definition of the new concept/idea with which to work with the caveat that it is an evolving concept and will be embellished as we move along.
2) Next my special thanks Charan Singh Ji and Gurjeet Singh ji for their latest posts on the blog. So these following inquiries of mine are essentially directed to them for clarification.
3) Regarding “Naav” and “Naam”, from the following lines ( copied from the blog) it is very clear that one with Aunkar is singular and the other is plural. BUT HERE IS MY QUERY: THE “NAAV” WHICH IS PLURAL IS BY DEFINITION REFERS TO COLLECTION OF NAMES OF UNCOUNTABLE (Asankh) OBJECTS OF GOD’S CREATION. BUT THE “NAAM” THAT APPEARS LATER IN THIRD LINE AS A SINGULAR (with Aunkar) IS ALTOGETHER A TOTALLY DIFFERENT CONCEPT AND DOES NOT HAVE ANY RELATIONSHIP WITH “NAAV” AS IT IS STATED IN THE FIRST LINE. I hope I am right on this otherwise I will be happy to add further clarification to what I am saying in our next meeting.
ਅਸੰਖ ਨਾਵ ਅਸੰਖ ਥਾਵ ॥
ਨਾਵ is used as Plural form. Also its adjective (ਅਸੰਖ : Innumerable) is plural
ਨਾਮੁ, ਨਾਉ are Singular forms (With Aunkar Under-neath the last letter of a Word)
4) The second point that I raised in our last discussion was:
ਜੋ ਪ੍ਰਾਣੀ ਗੋਵਿੰਦੁ ਧਿਆਵੈ ॥
ਪੜਿਆ ਅਣਪੜਿਆ ਪਰਮ ਗਤਿ ਪਾਵੈ ॥੧॥ ਪੰਨਾ ੧੯੭
I see the following traditional meaning and the actual meaning as posted:
Traditional meaning:
That mortal who meditates on the Lord of the Universe,
whether educated or uneducated, obtains the state of supreme dignity. ||1||
NOTE : GOBIND is not the Lord of the Universe as per Gurbani. (Hukam is the Lord of Universe), Gobind is our Braham.
Actual Meanings
That mortal who meditates on his Mool (Gobind ; Conscious Braham),
Must eradicate his previous education (Manmat)
to obtain the state of supreme dignity with his Braham
Let me first ignore the traditional meaning and focus on what is being suggested as an “Actual Meaning”.
Here is one of my very common concerns. Many times when I listen to some very informed and Gurbani-literate people on TV, YouTube or listen to their CDs I often find that they are not really presenting what Gurubani is saying rather they are presenting their own “pre-constructed” perspective on a given topic and are selectively picking up lines from AGGS to support and affirm their own “pre-constructed” belief. This is as if THEY ARE TRYING TO ALIGN GURUBANI (GURMAT) WITH THEIR OWN LINE OF THINKING (MANMAT) RATHER THAN ALIGNING THEIR OWN THOUGHTS (MANMAT) WITH GURUBANI THOUGHTS ( GURMAT) -- which is an imperative!
So here is my question to both Charan Singh Ji and Gurjeet Singh Ji:
If you read the first line “Jo Paranee Gobind Dheeava”, it is clear that the focus is on “Paranee” and there is a qualifier….which Prananee....the one who is focused or absorbed in Gobind….Guru Sahib is talking about such a Pranaee/Mortal who is on the path of Gurmat. IF THE PRANAEE IS ALREADY ON THE PATH OF GURMAT, IT DOES NOT MAKE SENSE TO TELL HIM ( as you have interpreted in the next line) YOU MUST ERADICATE MANMAT WHEN HE IS ALREADY DOING IT OR PERHAPS HAVE DONE IT....AND IS ON THE PATH OF GURMAT.
For this reason I do not agree with your interpretation.
I interpret it as follows: “the path of Gurmat is open to all and we all can make progress on this path irrespective of our level of education. Even if we do not know how to read or write ….by mere understanding ( Suniya) followed by getting absorbed into what we learnt (Maniya) we can attain “Param Gat”…We can become “Panch” …we can become “Sachiara”.
Finally, I do not agree when you (Gurjeet Ji) say in the post “Hukum is Lord of Universe”. Hukum is “Divine Will” and Haumai is “Individual Will”. Yesterday I read an excellent paper in an old issue of Sikh Abstract where these concepts are detailed with supporting references from AGGS. iI would be happy to share should you wish.
Guru Fetah
Paramjit Singh Rana
Hukum is “Divine Will” and Haumai is “Individual Will”. ..... iI would be happy to share should you wish.
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Paramjeet Singh ji - please share your referenced article. Second, if you are interested please research and share more on "ਅਣਪੜਿਆ " while exploring the Guru Granth Sahib only. We are confident you will arrive at the same conclusion. Please explore - Humans have organs to help them experience - for example, eyes have a function to see, stomach has a digestive function, heart circulates blood, hands are used for working, intellect, memory / brain stores, processes/ reprocesses the learning/ knowledge, in the light of these organs- functions described, as per Gurmat - what do you think is Prana, what is the function of Prana and how it is performed?
Finally how this on going discussions are useful/ in context with these Stanza 17, 18 and 19 of Jap BaNnee. My answer is: Gurbani discusses education/ knowledge, sources, having and not having knowledge and its impact of human behaviour in these 17th and 18th stanza. However, in Stanza 19 the Gurmat solution is introduced that is a pedagogical innovative solution. So discussion on ਪੜਿਆ - ਅਣਪੜਿਆ are very much grounded in these Stanzas. Understanding, who and what is ਅਣਪੜਿਆ , is very important. Interesting bonus search could be done if any where, illuminates in Gurbani, the word Anparh ਅਨਪੜ/ਅਨਪੜਿ ( in common terminology it means uneducated) However, it seems while reading Gurbani, we impose its meaning, near similar to while reading and meaning ਅਣਪੜਿਆ . Gurbani distinguishes between ਅਣ and ਅਨ very nicely and profoundly.
humbly
Charan Singh Ji:
Guru Fetah!
I will happy to share the paper, please provide me your e-mail. You have two choices: (1) I can copy the paper from the Sikh Abstracts and paste it in a word document and email it to you. It may distort the formatting somewhat; (2) I can send you the entire scanned copy of the Sikh Abstracts (approx. 120- 130 pages) which includes the paper we are talking about and a number of other papers. What would you prefer?
Please note, in my last post when I say “compared to all of you who are much higher up in this what I call Gurubani Sangat/Class, I find myself in the kindergarten”, I am expressing my sincere gratitude to all of you. I hope my statement is not viewed as I am putting myself down and we should strive not to be condescending to others.
You suggest that I should research and share the meaning of such words as Prana, ਅਣਪੜਿਆ ,ਅਣ and ਅਨ. I believe this would be a futile exercise since we can look at the meanings of all these words either in a Mahan Kosh or a Punjabi dictionary. Our interest should not only be in the literal meaning of the words rather it should be in the “implied” meaning that comes from the context in which a word is used.
When we are trying to understand a “word” on page 4 of AGGS but rely on its interpretation based on its use on page 1005 of AGGS, then the question arises -does it mean that the “word” did not appear anywhere in-between on the 1000 pages ( from 5 to 1004). If the “word” has appeared on these pages then why did we ignore all these interpretations of the “word” and settled on the one that is derived from page 1005. Clearly it is not practical to check all references of the “word” in AGGS but one can at least look at a few randomly (!!!) selected references before importing an interpretation from page 1005 to page 4. Unless we provide such reinforcing argument, it appears that one is trying to support a “pre-conceived” belief or idea that one wishes to promote. For me, it is like trying to align GURMAT with our MANMAT – something that is emphatically discouraged in Gurubani and I would also equate this to an effort, albeit inadvertent, to satisfy our personal ego or Haumai. For this reason, in my humble opinion, the context is extremely important in understanding Gurubani.
In the last sentence you state “Gurbani distinguishes between ਅਣ and ਅਨ very nicely and profoundly” but then you pause. I was hoping you will share your insight at least at a cursory level.
Guru Fetah.
Paramjit Singh Rana